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На форуме «7Королевств» обсуждаем книги серии «Песнь Льда и Пламени», ждем «Ветра зимы», смотрим вместе сериал «Игра престолов» и «Дом драконов», делимся фанатским творчеством, организуем переводы, работу над энциклопедией и другие начинания фанатов. Строго для фанатов!
Вход Регистрация
Сюжеты Поход Ночного Дозора в Заколдованный лес
- Автор темы Всеслав Чародей
- Дата начала
Westerosi
Знаменосец
Нарыл немного упоминаний об Иных в четырех книгах:
"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years
ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"
"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only . . .
Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."
Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.
"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-"
…
All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"
…
Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years.
_____________________
The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was
found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."
No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.
…
Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."
"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."
Получается, что согласно страшилкам Нэн Иных изгнали 8000 лет назад. Но в то же время Король ночи нашел себе женщину, похожую по описанию на Иную, после их изгнания. Значит они никуда не исчезали никогда. Просто ждали подходящего момента для возобновления попыток захватить Вестерос. Вопрос состоит в том, что заставило их поднять голову. Здесь приходит на ум Крастер почему-то.
Что касается Крастера, то он приносил в жертву своих мальчиков и иногда животных. То же самое, похоже, делал когда-то Король ночи (кстати это вскрылось уже после его уничтожения, судя по всему). Получал ли он что-либо взамен? Здесь скорее можно говорить, что они видели в том, кто создал Иных, главного и единственного Бога.
И тогда выходит, что дети Иным нужны в любом случае, но вряд ли для кормления зомби (а есть очевидцы, которые видели, как они детей именно кормили кому-то или ели сами?), скорее для создания новых Иных.
Еще. Если были Король ночи и Крастер, то почему у Иных не может быть других приспешников в Вестеросе, которые принесут им Рог?
И главный вывод. В прошлый раз справится с ними помогли дети леса, согласно Нэн. Видимо, в этот раз будет также.
"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years
ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"
"Well," Bran said reluctantly, "yes, only . . .
Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."
Her voice had dropped very low, almost to a whisper, and Bran found himself leaning forward to listen.
"Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds-"
…
All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"
…
Jon could have told him. He knew, they all knew, yet no man of them would say the words. The Others are only a story, a tale to make children shiver. If they ever lived at all, they are gone eight thousand years.
_____________________
The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.
He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was
found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.
"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."
No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.
…
Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."
"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."
Получается, что согласно страшилкам Нэн Иных изгнали 8000 лет назад. Но в то же время Король ночи нашел себе женщину, похожую по описанию на Иную, после их изгнания. Значит они никуда не исчезали никогда. Просто ждали подходящего момента для возобновления попыток захватить Вестерос. Вопрос состоит в том, что заставило их поднять голову. Здесь приходит на ум Крастер почему-то.
Что касается Крастера, то он приносил в жертву своих мальчиков и иногда животных. То же самое, похоже, делал когда-то Король ночи (кстати это вскрылось уже после его уничтожения, судя по всему). Получал ли он что-либо взамен? Здесь скорее можно говорить, что они видели в том, кто создал Иных, главного и единственного Бога.
И тогда выходит, что дети Иным нужны в любом случае, но вряд ли для кормления зомби (а есть очевидцы, которые видели, как они детей именно кормили кому-то или ели сами?), скорее для создания новых Иных.
Еще. Если были Король ночи и Крастер, то почему у Иных не может быть других приспешников в Вестеросе, которые принесут им Рог?
И главный вывод. В прошлый раз справится с ними помогли дети леса, согласно Нэн. Видимо, в этот раз будет также.
Гэз Макон
Знаменосец
Почему он приходит в голову? Почему не появление драконов с которыми в Мир вернулась магия или скорее усилилась.Почему за 8000 лет их популяция не разрослась? А получается ведь, что полностью они не были уничтожены (подруга Короля Ночи). Очень похоже на то, что они как в спячку впадают и пробуждаются с какими то изменениями в Мире.
И почему если Крастер так для них важен - они не защитили его, почему сам он не обладал никакими Силами?
Westerosi
Знаменосец
Ну, Иные проявили себя раньше (в прологе к первой книге), чем возродились драконы (в самом конце первой книги), так что здесь скорее можно говорить о том, что драконы были следствием.
Похоже, что сам Крастер - обычный человек, который поклоняется "своим богам". А почему не защитили? Вроде бы они только ночью выходят на улицу (где они днем прячутся, фиг знает), а Крастера замочили вечерком. Они и подоспели кстати, но чуть позже, и добили всех остававшихся братьев НД. А приходили ли они за ребенком Джилли или для спасения Крастера, это мы не узнаем никогда.
Deni
Знаменосец
Насчет приносил в жертву не понятно. Он их отдавал Иным. Вроде так по тексту. А насчет пробуждения Иных, так Игрид вроде говорила, что это одичалые перерыли кучу могил пока искали Рог. Может они что-то такое пробудили.
Turak
Наемник
Крастер просто откупался от Иных младенцами мужского пола. ему самому они были не нужны(младенцы). он вероятно считал это удачной сделкой.
безопасность в обмен на младенцев.
Возможно, Иные рассматривали усадьбу Крастера, как своеобразную ферму по выращиванию младенцев. И даже обеспечивали ему некую защиту от одичалых. Дело в том, что позиция Крастера выглядит очень уязвимо. Он один, а женщин у него несколько десятков. И выкрасть у него молодую девушку не так уж и сложно. И что может сделать Крастер в таком случае? Всё бросить и искать потерю? Так он вообще может остаться без всех жен. В-общем ферму нужно охранять, чтобы скот не растащили.
безопасность в обмен на младенцев.
Возможно, Иные рассматривали усадьбу Крастера, как своеобразную ферму по выращиванию младенцев. И даже обеспечивали ему некую защиту от одичалых. Дело в том, что позиция Крастера выглядит очень уязвимо. Он один, а женщин у него несколько десятков. И выкрасть у него молодую девушку не так уж и сложно. И что может сделать Крастер в таком случае? Всё бросить и искать потерю? Так он вообще может остаться без всех жен. В-общем ферму нужно охранять, чтобы скот не растащили.